Arlina Allen is a force in the recovery movement. Sober for over 30 years, she’s been releasing episodes of her top 1% podcast, ODAAT Chat, for over eight.

She’s also been working on a book for almost that long—and now it’s finally here! The 12-Step Guide for Skeptics: Clearing Up Common Misconceptions of A path to Sobriety is out now and for it, she showed her book-in-progress to people who not only didn’t agree with what she was writing but who actually disagreed.

In this episode, we talked about her process, how she realized that her original idea for the book was more an article than a book and the way her podcast set her up for book sucess.